Deputy Healy asks the Taoiseach the following questions with regard to the introduction of the water charges:
“Where water is not fit for purpose, such as in the case of the 18,000 families subject to boil water notices like residences in my constituency served by the Burncourt regional water supply scheme, will families be charged for water?”
“Where hard water is supplied and is corroding electric kettles, shower heads, washing machines and dishwashers, as is the case across the northern part of Clonmel, will the families be charged for water?”
“A huge number of premises will not be metered before the introduction of the charges. How will the bills for these families be calculated?”
“What will be the free water allowance? Will larger households get a larger free allowance of water?”
“Where individuals have special needs for extra drinking water, will the extra amount be free?”
“Will individuals with medical conditions requiring frequent use of toilet facilities, for example those suffering from incontinence, prostate problems or Crohn’s disease, be provided with extra free water for sanitation?”
Deputy Seamus Healy: The Water Services Bill provides for the introduction of water charges and it was guillotined and bulldozed through the Dáil before Christmas. It was supported by the Labour Party and a Labour Party Tánaiste who built his career on opposition to water charges.
Deputy Timmy Dooley: Now he is cutting the property tax.
Deputy Seamus Healy: Be that as it may, in a few short months we will have water charges imposed by this Government. There are many unanswered questions and I hope the Taoiseach can provide answers to the House and the public this evening. Where water is not fit for purpose, such as in the case of the 18,000 families subject to boil water notices like residences in my constituency served by the Burncourt regional water supply scheme, will families be charged for water? Where hard water is supplied and is corroding electric kettles, shower heads, washing machines and dishwashers, as is the case across the northern part of Clonmel, will the families be charged for water?
A huge number of premises will not be metered before the introduction of the charges. How will the bills for these families be calculated? What will be the free water allowance? Will larger households get a larger free allowance of water? Where individuals have special needs for extra drinking water, will the extra amount be free? Will individuals with medical conditions requiring frequent use of toilet facilities, for example those suffering from incontinence, prostate problems or Crohn’s disease, be provided with extra free water for sanitation? These are some of the many questions still unanswered. The public and the House have a right to know the answer to the questions. I hope the Taoiseach answers the question.
The Taoiseach: Deputy Seamus Healy has made the case for the introduction of Irish Water or the Irish water board. In 2014, we cannot continue with 18,000 families having to boil water and having boil water notices issued to them on a regular basis. That is not on anymore. We cannot have a situation where up to 1,000,000 homes are the subject of intensive inquiries from the Environmental Protection Agency because of the inadequacy of the water system, nor can we have 40% of water produced, which the people pay for, leaking into the ground. As an example, some 60,000 litres of water leaked away from one house in Galway last year. This is not sustainable.
Given the extent of rainfall we have naturally, this should not be the case. If people are not in a position to consume the water that flows through the pipes, it cannot be allowed to continue. In the next couple of weeks, the Government will bring to the House the financial and structural model under which Irish Water will operate and it will include a very clear analysis and presentation of how this will operate, the extent of the charges that will apply, the follow through on the use of an allowance of water and the charge thereafter. The Government has taken this into account. It is in the interests of Irish Water being able to operate as a semi-State entity and being able to borrow money on the open market for real investment in the network of piping that is being retained in public ownership so that people do not have to boil water and so that we do not have 1 million houses under threat and so that businesses can say they will have an adequate supply of pristine, high-quality water. In all my time in here, I have listened, year after year, to people speaking about leaking pipes, asking why there is not a national scheme to fix it once and saying that, for a country that is able to build the rest of the world, surely we should be in a position to provide adequate water for people, consumers and businesses. This is putting in place a structure to carry us through the next 50 years. That is the reason for Irish Water and the financial and structural business model will set out all the details in the coming weeks.
Deputy Timmy Dooley: What about group water schemes?
Deputy Finian McGrath: Like the Cabinet, it is full of leaks.
Deputy Seamus Healy: As usual, the Taoiseach has answered none of my questions. I asked policy questions for the Government, not questions for Irish Water, the regulator or anyone else. We can only assume that, by refusing to answer questions, the Taoiseach is kicking the issue down the road beyond the local and European elections. Is the Taoiseach aware of the European right to water campaign, which believes that water is a human right, as does the United Nations? The campaign includes 1.5 million European citizens who have signed a petition calling on the European Union to legislate to ensure all member states vindicate the right in laws. The vindication of the right is an obligation of sovereign governments. Will the Government support the call of the 1.5 million European citizens for an EU directive enforcing the principle? Will the Taoiseach instruct the Government’s representatives to be present at European Parliament hearings on 17 February and to support the call? Will this country be shamed again like we were in 2010, when the previous Government of Fianna Fáil and the Green Party abstained on the issue at the United Nations?
Deputy Patrick O’Donovan: Was Deputy Finian McGrath a member of the Government at that time?
Deputy Finian McGrath: No, I was not there that time.
The Taoiseach: I accept the Deputy’s challenge in the assumption that this will be kicked out beyond the local and European elections. I have always been a believer in explaining to people what is involved so they know in advance.
Deputy Timmy Dooley: Was that a conversion over the weekend?
Deputy Micheál Martin: What will it cost?
The Taoiseach: The Deputy can take it from me that the Government will before the local and European elections present its business and financial model so people can know what is involved in the very same way as we determined the property charges.
Deputy Seamus Healy: The Taoiseach has answered none of the questions.
Deputy Michael Noonan: So those opposite will have to stop making up stories.
The Taoiseach: The fact that something becomes a human right does not mean it is always free. The Deputy’s assertion is that this is some kind of political camouflage that will end beyond May. Deputy Healy can forget that, as the matter will be dealt with upfront and in advance so that people will know about it. The business and financial model to be produced here in a couple of weeks will set out the structure, method, allowance and the charge that will apply, so everybody will know in advance what it will be. The Deputy should understand that the charges which drive this are in respect of the Irish consumer and not Uisce Éireann, the people who work for Uisce Éireann or anybody else. This will be driven by consumer needs and requirements.
We are talking about providing an opportunity for the next two generations to have a system and supply of water that stands up to the needs of a modern country. We cannot go on with the business of 40% of produced water leaking into the ground. We cannot stand on doorsteps and say that we are so incompetent that we must continue to boil water or that 1 million homes are under threat because of irregular and inadequate supplies. It is time to end all that and put in place a basis for a supply of water of which every person in the country can be truly proud. The charges will be driven by the requirements of the consumer and not anybody else.
Deputy Healy questions the Tánaiste asking “how can the Government justify the introduction of a new regressive water tax to be paid by families that are already at their wits’ end?”
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
The policies of successive Governments have allowed an elite golden circle of the rich and powerful in this country to obtain obscene levels of wealth at a time when the vast majority of people have seen their incomes reduced and have been struggling day in, day out to make ends meet. The message from last week’s meeting in Davos and from the Paris School of Economics is that Irish society is becoming more unequal. We are hearing the same message from Oxfam, the Central Statistics Office and the Economic and Social Research Institute. That message is supported by the fact that many of the consultants who recently received substantial payments from Irish Water are the same companies and individuals who were paid for bad advice and bad oversight during the boom. The message is further reinforced by the payment of bonuses, the breach of pay limits for Government advisers and the payment of huge pensions. The list goes on.
In a recent study, the Paris School of Economics showed that the wealthiest 1% of people in Ireland own 10% of national income. Ireland is the seventh worst, in inequality terms, of the 18 countries studied. The figures for accumulated wealth are even more significant and stark. The wealthiest 5% of families in this country own 47% of the wealth. Since this Government came to power, the wealthiest 300 individuals in this country have gained €9 billion, or €30 million each. According to the Central Statistics Office, the incomes of the wealthiest 10% of people in Ireland have increased during the course of the recession, while the incomes of the other 90% of people have decreased. That fall has accelerated as incomes have declined.
Seán Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
A question, please.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
The Economic and Social Research Institute has independently studied the last three budgets and found them to be regressive, which means the budgets have taken the most from those who have the least. Low and middle income families—–
Seán Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
This is a time for questions rather than speeches. Will the Deputy put his question?
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
I am putting the question now. Low and middle income families have had their incomes undermined. They have been fleeced by increased taxes, such as the unfair household tax. They are struggling to make ends meet.
Seán Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
I will not ask the Deputy again to put a question rather than making a statement.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
In those circumstances, how can the Government justify the introduction of a new regressive water tax to be paid by families that are already at their wits’ end?
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Hear, hear.
Eamon Gilmore (Tánaiste; Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
I share with Deputy Healy a wish to see equity in our society.
Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
Then do it.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Good man, Peter. Give it some welly.
Eamon Gilmore (Tánaiste; Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
I want to see fair taxation that ensures those who are in the best position to contribute to the finances of the State do so. The problem is that every time we propose any measures in that regard, Deputy Healy opposes them.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
Which ones?
John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
What has this Government done to address inequality?
Eamon Gilmore (Tánaiste; Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
For example, this Government has introduced a number of measures to increase capital taxation. I refer to taxes like capital gains tax, capital acquisitions tax and deposit interest retention tax. To my recollection, Deputy Healy opposed all of those measures.
Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
The Tánaiste used to oppose water charges at one time.
Eamon Gilmore (Tánaiste; Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
When we introduced a property tax, my recollection is that Deputy Healy opposed that as well.
Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
The Tánaiste is talking about the family home tax.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
The home tax.
Eamon Gilmore (Tánaiste; Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
I am certainly open to hearing from Deputy Healy specific proposals about taxation or other measures that will contribute to greater equity. There is no point coming into the Dáil to bemoan inequality and excessive wealth and then opposing every measure that is introduced to deal with those issues.
Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
That was the reserve of the Labour Party when it was in opposition.
John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
Did the Labour Party not propose a wealth tax and a financial transactions tax?
Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
That is what got it into government for its short stint.
Eamon Gilmore (Tánaiste; Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
If one studies the OECD’s examination of our taxation system, one will find that the top 1% of earners in this country, who were mentioned by Deputy Healy, now pay approximately 20% of the income tax. He also referred to the top 5%, who now pay approximately 40% of all the income tax that is paid in this country.
Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
That is based on income tax only.
Eamon Gilmore (Tánaiste; Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
The OECD now considers the Irish tax system to be one of the most progressive among the countries it covers.
John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
How did they accumulate that wealth? They did it on the backs of the poor.
Eamon Gilmore (Tánaiste; Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
I am open to hearing any specific and worthwhile proposals to improve the current position that Deputy Healy might have.
Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
That would be more than the Tánaiste ever proposed when he was in opposition.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
We have heard the usual spin and untruths from the Tánaiste. Of course I have made proposals regarding wealth and asset taxes in this Chamber on numerous occasions.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
That is right.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
I have also done so in my budget submissions. The top 1% in this country, and indeed the top 10% in this country, have a completely disproportionate share of national income. The Government has refused to implement a wealth tax or an assets tax.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Hear, hear.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
The Tánaiste is on record as opposing water charges. I would like to quote something he once said.
Seán Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
This is not about statements.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
He said “the PAYE taxpayer has already paid enough for local services and should not have to pay again”.
Seán Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
Would you put a supplementary question, please?
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
In 1994, he said that the Fianna Fáil-Labour Party Government had “imposed Residential Property Tax and now they are making us pay for water”.
Anne Ferris (Wicklow, Labour)
That was 20 years ago.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
When water charges were abolished in 1997, he said the Government of the time was right to do that because they were “a form of double taxation”.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
He was not in the Labour Party then.
Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
He could have been in any of three or four parties.
Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
He might have been in New Agenda.
Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Or Democratic Left.
Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
That was before he went away and became an altar boy.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
The vast majority of people in this country have been fleeced and crucified over recent years. In those circumstances—–
Seán Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
Sorry, would you put your question?
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
—–and in light of the possibility of imposing wealth and assets taxes on very rich people in this country, will the Government withdraw the water charges that are proposed to commence in November of this year?
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Hear, hear.
Eamon Gilmore (Tánaiste; Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
Okay. I will comment on the issue of wealth taxes.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
Is the Tánaiste accepting that I made a proposal in that regard?
Seán Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
The Deputy should listen to Tánaiste’s reply, whether he likes it or not.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
I am making sure he tells the truth.
Eamon Gilmore (Tánaiste; Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
There are three essential forms of wealth: property, pensions, which account for a large part of wealth these days, and money. This Government has introduced additional taxes in each of those three areas of wealth. We have introduced a property tax.
Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
It is a family home tax.
Eamon Gilmore (Tánaiste; Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
We have introduced additional capital taxes. We have introduced an additional tax on pensions that yield over €60,000 a year. We have also introduced additional taxes on money. The idea of coming in here and saying “let’s tax wealth” is all very well. It is a grand idea.
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
We are talking about net wealth.
Eamon Gilmore (Tánaiste; Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
It sounds great and wonderful until—–
Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
Until one gets into government.
Eamon Gilmore (Tánaiste; Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
—–the Government actually comes to do it. The reality is that when the Government comes to do it—–
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Independent)
It flunks it.
Eamon Gilmore (Tánaiste; Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
—–Deputy Healy opposes it every time.
Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Independent)
It does not have the bottle for it.
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
The Labour Party’s bosses in Fine Gael say “No”.
Seán Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
Deputy Broughan, please.
Patrick O’Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
The Deputy had his chance but he did not stay around and stand his ground for long enough.
Seán Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
We are over time. If Deputies do not want to hear the Tánaiste’s reply, I will just cut off the debate.
Eamon Gilmore (Tánaiste; Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
On the issue of water, the Government has decided—–
Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
To make the ordinary people pay.
Eamon Gilmore (Tánaiste; Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
—–to make sustainable provision for water services in this country for probably the next quarter of a century or more. That is a prudent thing to do.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
The Government has decided to fleece families.
Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
People will have to pay for dirty water.
Eamon Gilmore (Tánaiste; Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
The previous Government failed to do that. We made it clear in the programme for Government that a charging arrangement based on a metered system, with a free water allowance for households, would be introduced.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
I thought we had free water now.
Eamon Gilmore (Tánaiste; Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
We said that charging for water would take place on a metered basis beyond that free allowance.
John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
We have not even been told what that allowance will be.
Eamon Gilmore (Tánaiste; Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
Rather than exaggerating and telling people that this cost will be very excessive—–
Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
The Government told lies about the property tax.
Eamon Gilmore (Tánaiste; Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
—–Deputies should be assured that the Government is on the side of families and households on this issue.
Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
The Tánaiste opposed water charges three years ago.
Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
He certainly opposed them when he was in the Workers Party, Democratic Left and New Agenda.
Seamus Healy TD raises the issue of monster pylons, the anger in rural Ireland and the 35,000 public submissions to EIRGRID in opposition to Government plans.
Deputy Healy asks the Taoiseach to suspend the pylon project until at least an international, independent assessment is carried out.
Workers & Unemployed Action 