Earlier today, 21.02.2014, Deputy Healy was interviewed by Seamus Martin on Tipp Fm.
Seamus Martin introduced the item as follows:
“During yesterdays leaders questions in the Dáil Seamus Healy Independant TD for South Tipperary accused the Labour Party of betraying James Connolly and Michael Davitt in selling off the homes of over 13,000 Irish families to vulture capitalists, the modern equivalent of rack rent landlords. He asked if this was not economic treason but Joan Burton (Minister for Social Protection) for the Government defended the sale.”
Click Here for Leaders Questions 20.02.14
Deputy Seamus Healy: Last year marked the 100th anniversary of the 1913 Lock-out, a struggle for workers’ rights. The previous year marked the 100th anniversary of the foundation of the all-Ireland Labour Party by James Connolly and Jim Larkin in Clonmel. In a few short years we will remember the sacrifice of James Connolly and his comrades in 1916. It is more than 125 years since Michael Davitt initiated the Land League campaign against rack-renting landlords.
All of these were movements for the rights, freedom, independence and self-determination of the Irish people. Today the Government is prepared to sell the roofs over the heads of 13,000 Irish people to the modern equivalent of rack-renting landlords, foreign vulture capitalists. A total of 13,000 Irish Nationwide mortgage holders face the appalling vista of their mortgages being sold to these foreign vulture capitalists. These companies are not subject to the Irish regulations put in place to protect distressed mortgage holders. The mortgages are expected to be sold at huge knockdown discounts. Performing mortgages will be discounted up to 30% while distressed mortgages will have discounts in excess of 50%. These companies will be able to squeeze Irish Nationwide mortgage holders, increase interest rates, repossess homes and make obscene profits. The mortgage holders are being thrown to the wolves by the Government.
Deputy Mattie McGrath: Hear, hear.
Deputy Seamus Healy: They are not even being allowed to bid for their own mortgages.
An Ceann Comhairle Sean Barrett: I thank the Deputy and ask him to put a question.
Deputy Seamus Healy: Media reports, rightly in my view, have described this sell-off as pure financial treason and an act of outrageous vandalism. Will the Government reverse the decision to sell these mortgages? Will the Government instruct the IBRC liquidator, as it is entitled to do in law, to stop these sales?
Deputy Joan Burton: Special liquidators have been appointed to oversee the liquidation of the IBRC. This is in law for the benefit of all the creditors of the institution, including the State. The special liquidators, as with any liquidator, must maximise the return, and to do otherwise would leave it open to legal challenge. The process involves the special liquidators conducting a valuation and sale process for all the assets of the IBRC, including the residential mortgage portfolio. They are obliged to ensure they maximise the price obtained.
I understand and respect the Deputy’s concern for the people who have mortgages with the institution. A number of such sales have been carried out and quite a number of Deputies have asked this question of the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance. In those cases a number of the purchasers, although they are outside the State, have adhered to the code of conduct and the guidelines set down by the Central Bank.
Deputy Mattie McGrath: What about Danske Bank?
Deputy Joan Burton: This is exactly what I would expect to happen in this case. Unfortunately, because of the collapse of the banks and what Fianna Fáil bequeathed to us, we have a situation in which quite a number of financial institutions have collapsed.
Deputy Mattie McGrath: The Government is in charge.
Deputy Joan Burton: To get the economy working again fully – we have started the recovery – we must sort out the issues arising from liquidation. I am very confident the mortgage holders will find that, as has happened in previous cases in this respect, the advice and codes of conduct established by the Central Bank will be adopted. Nothing else makes sense, if I may say so, for the purchasers of the mortgages, whoever they may be and whether they are from Ireland or from abroad, because at the end of the day they will want to recover their money. If, as the Deputy suggests, they will buy some of the mortgages at a discount, it will make sense for them to treat their customers very well because it will ensure they recover the money they invest in the deal. This is what has happened in Ireland and other jurisdictions where unfortunately there has been this type of bank collapse followed by liquidation of financial institutions.
Deputy Seamus Healy: Quite clearly, these families are being thrown to the wolves by the Government, because that is what the reply means. It means the Government is reversing the gains made by Michael Davitt and James Connolly, who called for the reconquest of Ireland from foreign landlords and foreign capitalists. The Government is restoring the modern equivalent of the rack-renting foreign landlord and providing them with the modern equivalent of the battering ram. Will the Government extend Irish legal protections to all mortgage holders? Will it allow householders to bid for these mortgages? Will the Government allow the special liquidator, KPMG, and its advisers, PricewaterhouseCoopers, both companies that were highly complicit in the banking crisis, to decide the future of Irish families? The Tánaiste and leader of the Labour Party accused the former Taoiseach, Brian Cowen, of economic treason regarding the bailout of Anglo Irish Bank. The Government is knowingly prepared to sell the roofs over the heads of Irish families to these international vulture capitalists. Is this not also economic treason?
Deputy Joan Burton: The economic treason was probably by the people who brought in the bank guarantee resulting in the disastrous collapse—–
Deputy Mattie McGrath: The Minister’s colleagues in government voted for it.
Deputy Barry Cowen: The Government extended it.
Deputy Joan Burton: —–of a number of banking institutions, as happens, unfortunately, in banking collapses. It gives none of us any pleasure to have to recall very sad history of the party opposite when it ruined the economy and the livelihoods and jobs of more than 250,000 people.
Deputy Dara Calleary: You could do with recalling your own history.
Deputy Mattie McGrath: What about the Labour Party?
Deputy Barry Cowen: And you turned it around. You are doing a great job.
Deputy Seamus Healy: Will the Government allow the people to bid for their own mortgages?
An Ceann Comhairle: Do you mind? Thank you.
Deputy Joan Burton: I am perfectly aware – I understand and I sympathise with people—–
Deputy Dara Calleary: Crocodile tears.
Deputy Joan Burton: —–who are affected by the fact they took out a mortgage, maybe 15 or 20 years ago, with a solid-as-a-rock building society, perhaps specialising in mortgages for teachers or gardaí, but suddenly all of the certainty collapsed with the bank guarantee.
Deputy Seamus Healy: Will the Government protect these mortgage holders?
Deputy Joan Burton: What the Government is doing is sorting out the legacy we inherited.
Deputy Michael McGrath: You are selling them down the Swanee.
Deputy Joan Burton: The Department of Finance is aware of this. We have two previous examples of groups of mortgages being sold—–
Deputy Michael McGrath: It is unenforceable. That is the point.
Deputy Joan Burton: —–and where the interest of the mortgage holders has been treated absolutely consistently with the code of conduct and the other advices of the Central Bank. This is what I anticipate will happen again this time.
Deputy Bernard J. Durkan: Hear, hear.
Statement by Seamus Healy TD (WUA) 087-2802199. Sent by Paddy Healy 086-4183732 on behalf of the Deputy.
Seamus Healy TD was interviewed by Keelin Shanley on the Sean O’Rourke Programme on RTE this morning on the question of repossession of homes. A clip from his Leaders question to Eamonn Gilmore on the issue was also played.
Seamus reiterated that there was up to 30,000 mortgage holders with no disposal income who cannot avail of the personal insolvency procedure and are daily losing their homes. This had already been accepted by Minister Ruairi Quinn in contradiction to the positions of Eamonn Gilmore and Enda Kenny.
On the programme, Julie Sadlier solicitor for the Phoenix Project backed up Deputy Healy’s position and portrayed an even wider problem. Ms Sadlier advised people in this dilemma not to voluntarily surrender their homes as much could be done by organisations such as Phoenix to keep them in their homes. Phoenix Project, Port laoise, is a not for profit charitable organisation
Seamus Healy reiterated his call to government to introduce new legislation to stop bailed out banks bullying and harassing people out of their homes. He pointed out that the state is being left with the payment of rent allowance to families who have been effectively evicted from their homes.
Seamus Healy TD
Links:
Seamus Healy TD ~ Leaders Questions 19.12.2013
Seamus Healy TD ~ Leaders Questions ~ 03 December 2013
Deputy Healy raises the issue of family evictions with An Taoiseach
Statement on Behalf of Seamus Healy TD 087-2802199
AT Last Government Admits That There is a Problem for Low Income Families with Distressed Mortgages
Minister Quinn admits that more needs to be Done by Government to Keep People in their Homes
At leaders questions to-day Seamus Healy TD, for the third time, raised the question of low income families losing their homes under current debt resolution arrangements. Three weeks ago, Taoiseach Enda Kenny insisted there was a solution for all distressed mortgage holders which would enable them to stay in their homes. Two weeks ago, Tanaiste Eamonn Gilmore denied that the problem existed.
BUT To-DAY after Deputy Healy raised the issue a third time adducing irrefutable evidence, Minister Ruairi Quinn admitted that there was a problem ad that the Government would have to do more to keep people in their homes.
Under persistent pressure from Deputy Healy the government has shifted its position. Continued pressure is now required to make the Government act on its commitments.
The live debate can be viewed by clicking here wp.me/p1Uvd5-vu
The Dail Record is appended below
Paddy Healy 086-4183732 on behalf of Seamus Healy TD 087-2802199
Dail Record
Deputy Seamus Healy: I join with all Members in the Christmas and New Year’s greetings, particularly to the staff of the Houses of the Oireachtas, including the ushers, caterers, clerical and administrative staff who serve and support us.
The right to keep a roof over their heads and to continue to live in their family homes is one of the most cherished aspirations of the Irish people and people the world over. I make no apology for returning to the question of families being bullied out of their homes or legally compelled to leave by banks bailed out by the Irish people. The Taoiseach and the Tánaiste have refused to answer the question in recent times and I appeal to the Minister to address the question and answer it. It is very straightforward and I appeal to the Ceann Comhairle to ensure the Minister answers the question. For thousands of people, the fear of losing the family home is palpable and traumatic. It is giving rise to serious mental health issues. People fear the sight of the postman in case he or she has the dreaded letter from the bank demanding the sale or repossession of the family home. Since I raised the issue a fortnight ago, the rating agency, Fitch Ratings, has borne out my contention that up to 30,000 families face the loss of their homes under the insolvency arrangements put in place by the Government.
[Deputy Seamus Healy: ] Fitch puts the figure at 26,000 families on the basis of information given to the company directly by the banks. We are talking about people on low incomes whose only asset is a family home. They have fully engaged with lenders but have no disposable income.
This argument is widely accepted by people engaged in the mortgage distress area, such as the advocacy group New Beginnings, the free legal aid centres, the Phoenix project in Portlaoise, Grant Thornton and various personal insolvency practitioners across the country. New Beginnings has 1,000 distressed mortgage applications from people who see no out except for bankruptcy. Grant Thornton has a similar figure and when it studied 1,000 cases, it saw that up to 50% faced bankruptcy.
I want to ask a question I have already posed to the Taoiseach in the past couple of weeks. Does the Minister accept there is a serious problem and there are thousands of families on low incomes, below the minimum living expenses, who cannot avail of the insolvency process and who are facing the loss of the family home? What does the Government intend to do about that?
Deputy Ruairí Quinn: I agree with the Deputy in that we should extend our best wishes and appreciation to all members of the staff for the way in which this House runs so efficiently. With regard to the Deputy’s first question, my answer is “Yes”, and I accept that we have a problem. We have known that from the very beginning and since we came into government. It was one of the many problems we inherited from the previous disastrous Administration.
Deputy Ruairí Quinn: In respect to the Deputy’s second question, I accept that thousands of families are currently living in fear, and people in my constituency are struggling with the issue. As there has been a de facto moratorium on house building over the past number of years, there has been a significant increase in house rents, as Deputy Ó Caoláin noted. That has happened across the country and not just in the greater Dublin area, Cork and Limerick. We are trying to ensure, through massive change in the area of insolvency and mortgages, that systems can be worked out by families and lending institutions, including the two main banks, which have been massively recapitalised by the taxpayers in this country. That was so the banks could do what they were supposed to in this area.
Deputy Barry Cowen: We are getting that back in July, according to Enda.
Deputy Seamus Healy: I am not clear as to whether the Minister accepts the problem I outlined. Does he accept that there is a category of individuals – rather than individual families – numbering up to 30,000 families who cannot avail of insolvency arrangements put in place by the Government? As a result, they face the loss of their family homes. That will add another 20,000 or 30,000 to the 90,000 people already on our local authority house waiting lists.
Deputy Finian McGrath: Hear, hear.
Deputy Seamus Healy: They will also have to avail of rent supplement, at much cost to the State. Currently, the only solution for these families is bankruptcy. Does the Minister accept that as a solution for these families, as I certainly do not? What changes will the Government make in insolvency arrangements to ensure that this category of distressed mortgage holder can be helped? I repeat that these are blameless people on low incomes with no disposable income, so they cannot avail of insolvency arrangements. What changes will the Government make to ensure these families can stay in their homes?
Deputy Finian McGrath: Hear, hear.
Deputy Ruairí Quinn: Everybody in this House shares the concern which the Deputy has raised on a number of occasions. This Government has put in place a most comprehensive programme of action to assist householders struggling to pay their mortgages—–
Deputy Seamus Healy: That does not cover this category of people.
Deputy Ruairí Quinn: I am trying to reply to the Deputy’s question.
Deputy Billy Kelleher: The Minister is not listening.
Deputy Ruairí Quinn: We have rebalanced the rights of borrowers and lenders under the biggest shake-up of personal insolvency law in the century. We have given those who bought their first homes during the bubble significant increases in mortgage interest relief. That is not the end of what we are trying to do. I accept the concerns which have been expressed and although the figures are hard to calculate, they are of the order mentioned. Under this system, it is inevitable that some people will be faced with the prospect of losing their homes because of their circumstances. As a Government, we are prepared to look at the measures that can be adopted in that set of circumstances, where some kind of rental agreement or other form of intervention can be arrived at with institutions that in many cases have been funded by the taxpayer. This is to ensure that a family does not lose a home.
Deputy Joe Higgins: Write down the mortgages.
Deputy Peter Mathews: Correct.
Deputy Ruairí Quinn: Whatever way it is to be done, nobody in the House wants to see people put out on the street because they cannot repay amounts.
Deputies: Hear, hear.
Deputy Peter Mathews: Well do something about it.
Deputy Ruairí Quinn: Nobody wants that.
Deputy Finian McGrath: Fine Gael and Labour are the Government now. They still think they are the Opposition.
Deputy Seamus Healy: The current arrangements do not protect the people I have described.
An Ceann Comhairle: If Deputies are not prepared to listen, they should not ask the questions.
Deputy Ruairí Quinn: We all share the Deputy’s concern. This is an evolving problem and we have taken steps to resolve it in a number of areas. That does not mean we will not take more steps if necessary. In some cases, it probably will be necessary.
Deputy Peter Mathews: Of course it will.
Deputy Ruairí Quinn: The Government will not be found wanting.
Deputy Finian McGrath: They still think they are the Opposition.
Deputy Healy asks Minister Quinn if he accepts that there is a serious problem with regard to people facing homelessness, and also asks if he accepts that there are thousands of families on low incomes below the minimum living expenses who can not avail of the insolvency process and face the loss of their family homes as a result, and what does he intend to do about this?
Deputy Healy also asks Minister Quinn if he accepts that bankruptcy is a solution to these families, as Deputy Healy does not? and also Deputy Healy asks what changes are his government going to make in the insolvency arrangements to ensure that this category of distressed mortgage holder, who can’t avail of insolvency, can stay in their homes.
Deputy Healy highlights to the Tánaiste the case of 30,000 families who do not qualify for insolvency under the new arrangements and who are facing eviction, and he asked the Tánaiste: “Will the Government exercise sovereignty by preventing reckless bailed-out banks, some owned by international vulture capitalists, from evicting 30,000 families in this country”.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independenkt)
Up to 30,000 families face eviction due to the failure of the Government to protect them. They are distressed mortgage holders who have fully engaged with the banks. They are not strategic defaulters. Their only property is their family home. They do not have buy-to-let properties. In most cases they have modest mortgages. In all cases their incomes have collapsed due to the recession. The Insolvency Service of Ireland has set out living expenses for personal insolvency arrangements. Under those guidelines a family of two adults and two children must have minimum living expenses of €24,780 per year to qualify for insolvency arrangements. Such a family on jobseeker’s benefit or allowance has an annual income of €19,364, which is significantly less than the minimum living expenses under the guidelines. A similar family with one person in employment at a wage of €9 per hour – in excess of the minimum wage – and including FIS, has an income of €23,193 per year. Again, that is less than the minimum living expenses set out under the insolvency service.
Those two families have no net disposable income, as calculated by the Insolvency Service of Ireland. They have no money to give to the banks. They do not and cannot qualify for the insolvency arrangements. There are up to 30,000 such families. Paul Joyce of the Free Legal Aid Centres told us this morning that thousands of such families have had their proposals vetoed by the banks. I have letters from constituents who have been given the option of having a voluntary sale, making a voluntary surrender or being evicted. They are banks which the public has bailed out.
Last week the Taoiseach refused to answer my question on the issue but he repeatedly stated that there is a solution for everyone. Does the Tánaiste regard bankruptcy and repossession of the family home as a solution for those blameless families? Is that the reason the Government removed the legal ban on repossessions? One could ask whether that is the reason the indefensible situation has arisen whereby the Government has allowed the Central Bank to reduce the moratorium on repossessions from 12 months to two months. Will the Government ensure that the families which have fully engaged—–
Seán Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
The Deputy is well over time.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
—–and have modest mortgages that are not buy-to-let properties, who are not strategic defaulters—–
Seán Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
The Deputy should put his question please. He is way over time.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
Will the Tánaiste ensure that these families will be allowed to remain in their homes?
Eamon Gilmore (Tánaiste; Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
I do not agree that 30,000 families face eviction. However, 30,000 families would face eviction if the Government had not taken the steps it is taking to deal with the mortgage arrears problem. That is why today, for example, the new personal insolvency legislation will come into effect that will reduce from 12 years to three years the period of time for bankruptcy. I also agree that the solution to the mortgage arrears problems experienced by many families is neither bankruptcy nor losing their home. The cornerstone of the Government’s approach to mortgage arrears is to ensure that families are able to continue living in their home. That means solutions must be found where families and households are in mortgage difficulty. The solution will vary from case to case. We have now put in place a range of measures to help families in mortgage distress. The personal insolvency legislation strengthens their hand in their discussions with the banks. The Insolvency Service of Ireland has been put in place. A range of non-judicial debt settlement arrangements have been built into the legislation. A range of measures is also in existence which will allow for engagement between mortgage holders and their lenders. To date, more than 45,000 permanent mortgage restructures have been completed. There is still more to be done. Far too many families are in mortgage difficultly and work must continue on a case-by-case basis with them to resolve their mortgage difficulties in a way that ensures they can continue to live in their homes.
The whole point is that we do not want to see people losing their homes. The very approach of Government policy is to avoid that. Probably the biggest fear people have had during the recession, which has been even greater than the fear of losing their jobs, has been the fear of losing a home. That is why we have taken the approach we have taken. We have put in place legislation and the personal insolvency service and we have set targets for the banks to engage with borrowers and to reduce the number in mortgage distress. That work must continue. There are still many families whose mortgage arrears have not yet been resolved, and work must continue to ensure this is addressed.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
The Tánaiste has refused to answer the question. I have asked about a specific group, comprising families, that will not qualify for the insolvency arrangements about which the Tánaiste has spoken. He may not accept it but it is accepted widely, both within this House and outside it, that thousands of families do not qualify for the insolvency arrangements. New research by Grant Thornton Debt Solutions has found that many people seeking insolvency arrangements do not have enough income to qualify. Mr. Michael McAteer of Grant Thornton said recently on Newstalk that the only solution for these families is bankruptcy.
The Icelandic Government announced today that it will defy the banks by writing off up to €24,000 of household mortgages. Iceland obviously has real sovereignty.
Seán Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
I ask the Deputy to put his question.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
Will the Government exercise sovereignty by preventing reckless bailed-out banks, some owned by international vulture capitalists, from evicting 30,000 families in this country?
Eamon Gilmore (Tánaiste; Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
We want every family and householder in mortgage difficulty to have that difficulty resolved and to avoid up losing their home. There is no family that we want to see excluded from the arrangements we have put in place to resolve mortgage arrears difficulties.
There is not a single solution that fits every case.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
There is a particular group.
Eamon Gilmore (Tánaiste; Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
If the Deputy has a particular case in mind, he should let me know.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
There is a group of 30,000.
Eamon Gilmore (Tánaiste; Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
There is not. At the beginning, the Deputy said there were 30,000 families facing eviction. There are not.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
There are.
Eamon Gilmore (Tánaiste; Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
There are not.
Seán Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
Deputy Healy has had his say. I ask the Tánaiste to speak through the Chair.
Eamon Gilmore (Tánaiste; Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
There are not 30,000 families facing eviction, nor will there be. However, there are 30,000 families who would be facing that prospect if we had not put in place the measures we have put in place to deal with the issue of mortgage arrears.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
The group does not qualify for the arrangements, as the Tánaiste knows.
Seán Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
We have exceeded the time allowed.
Eamon Gilmore (Tánaiste; Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade; Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
There is no question of their not qualifying. Every single case of mortgage arrears difficulty must be resolved, and issues must be resolved on a case-by-case basis.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
Up to 30,000 families face eviction due to the Government’s failure to protect them. Mortgage holders will not qualify for the insolvency procedures because they have no disposable incomes or disposable assets. They have fully engaged with their lenders. They are not strategic defaulters. Their only assets are their family homes. They hold modest mortgages, many of less than €100,000 and almost all of less than €200,000. They are all low-income families, many headed by unemployed people.
They are in this position through no fault of their own. They took out mortgages when employed to put roofs over their heads and to provide for their families. Now, they are unemployed because of the reckless activity of the entire Irish establishment, including the Central Bank, the banks, the Government, their cheerleaders in the media and the State research bodies that predicted a soft landing.
The same banks that destroyed society and that we bailed out are threatening these genuine mortgage holders with eviction. I have a letter from one of the pillar banks to such a mortgage holder. It outlines the options available to the person, including voluntary sale and voluntary surrender. In the event of a shortfall, the person would remain liable under all of the options for the outstanding debt, including accrued interest, charges and legal, selling and related costs. The bank would always seek the gross sale proceeds.
The letter threatened eviction. The bank noted that—–
Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
The Deputy is limited to two minutes.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
—–forbearance was not appropriate, given the fact that the person’s financial position was unsustainable, and that, if the repayments due were not met and arrears accumulated on the mortgage, the matter would, regrettably, be referred to solicitors.
Such conduct from banks that we have bailed out is outrageous, unjust and unfair.
Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
Hear, hear.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
Will the Government legislate urgently to enable these unfortunate and blameless families to stay in their homes or will it continue to allow the banks to deploy the modern equivalent of the battering ram?
Deputies:
Hear, hear.
Enda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
The position is that I would say all parties in this House elected by the people do not want to see anybody thrown out of their home. The sad fact is, however, that, in a number of cases, it is going to be very difficult for some people to hold on to their homes – some.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
Up to 30,000.
Enda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
The Government has put in place all of the mechanisms to help every person who is a mortgage holder who has got a problem. There are 47,000 restructured permanently already. The numbers are being assessed by the Central Bank. Despite the fact that the party opposite decried the personal insolvency agency, claiming that banks had a veto and that this would result in thousands of people being evicted, the first evidence of cases going through the personal insolvency agency do not seem to indicate that.
Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Does one case tell the story?
Enda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
As these cases are worked through, we will have evidence of the actual situation. If those hard-working people who, through no fault of their own, find themselves in this position of having a problem with their mortgage, the first thing they must do is engage with the lender.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
They are fully engaged. They have done everything.
Enda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
There are requirements and codes and targets set out and—–
Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
The lenders should engage with the customers.
Enda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
—–being implemented by the Central Bank to work out a solution in each and every case. The Governor of the Central Bank has been very clear about the targets set by the Central Bank for banks and lending institutions to work out solutions in each and every case. It is perfectly obvious that the people who are applying for mortgages and who are in a position to purchase houses are not going to get caught in the same trap as those who have gone before them.
Despite much cynicism, the Government has acted responsibly to put in place codes of practice, targets and legislation to help the very people Deputy Healy spoke about. If they took out a mortgage and found that because of unemployment or other changed circumstances they are unable to pay, there is now a solution for every case. It means, however, that in every case those concerned must work out what solution is in their best interests. We do not want to see anybody lose their homes.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
What is the Taoiseach doing for this specific group of people?
Enda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
Some cases I have come across are very difficult.
Seán Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
Now the Deputy can speak properly. He does not need to interrupt.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
If the Taoiseach would answer the question we would have some basis for discussion.
Seán Barrett (Ceann Comhairle; Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
Please proceed, anyway.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
While the Taoiseach continues to put his head in the sand and washes his hands like a Pontius Pilate act, many of the people I am talking about will end up on the streets, as Focus Ireland said this morning. It is certain that families evicted from their homes will end up on the huge local authority housing waiting lists. Some 110,000 families are already on those lists and more will join the end of that queue. It is also certain that they will be entitled to rent supplement at a significant cost to the State.
The mortgage to rent scheme would allow these families to stay in their homes on a rental basis and also give them an option of repurchasing in future if their financial circumstances improve. Surely that scheme would be both socially and financially beneficial to families, the State and even to the banks. However, even though we bailed out the banks they are resisting this scheme. The Government seems to have abandoned the scheme. There have only been 60 approvals in that scheme since it was introduced.
Will the Taoiseach personally intervene with the banks to ensure that they fully operate the mortgage to rent scheme? That would give some hope to the 30,000 families involved who are facing eviction. This is a huge problem.
Enda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
Some 70,000 mortgages have been restructured.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
I am not talking about those.
Enda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
There were 45,177 permanent mortgage restructurings up to the end of September, which is an increase of 3,500 on the August figure. The Minister of State, Deputy Jan O’Sullivan, is working on a number of those smaller, more precise areas, including mortgage to rent and split mortgages. She is following through on that.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
Will the Taoiseach intervene with the banks?
Enda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
There is a solution in each case for every person who has a mortgage difficulty, and the figures are well known. However, they must engage with the lenders.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
They cannot do so because the lenders are not engaging with them.
Enda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
There is no point in leaving the matter aside because it will not sort itself out. A deal has to be cut in all these cases. That is why 70,000 mortgages have been restructured and over 45,000 have been permanently restructured. That did not happen of its own accord. It is because of the legislation, the targets, the code of practice and the assistance for people to engage directly with lenders.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
It will not happen in these cases unless the Taoiseach intervenes.
Enda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
The housing supplement is being changed to give a different incentive so that people will have an opportunity to get back to work. The letter that Deputy Healy has is not a solution.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
Absolutely. It is not a solution.
Enda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
Thousands of those letters went out from banks. Neither the Deputy nor I are responsible for the tone of that letter.
Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
It is going out to those 40,000 people.
Enda Kenny (Taoiseach, Department of An Taoiseach; Mayo, Fine Gael)
This matter has been discussed with the Central Bank whose Governor has set down targets for every bank to sit down with every mortgage holder and work out a solution in each case. Evidence of the much decried personal insolvency legislation is now becoming clear from the initial cases going through, that the banks do not have a veto. If the banks decide not to deal through the personal insolvency agency, they may get nothing at all if the person follows a bankruptcy route. That has been changed from 12 years to three.
